Veneer Podcast with Tobias Scherg

Presenter:
The following podcast is brought to you by Holzplatten AG, your partner for wood-based materials, doors and floor coverings.

Oliver Smart:
Hello everyone and a warm welcome to HOLZCHÖPF, the podcast for the Swiss timber industry. Here, fascinating personalities tell us who they are, where they work and what opportunities and challenges they see for our industry today and in the future.
My name is Oliver Smart from Holzplatten AG. My guest today is Tobias Scherg, Managing Director of Roser AG. Today, he’s taking us to the very heart of the timber and explaining how a log is properly split so that it can be turned into veneer.
Tobias, a very warm welcome to our conversation.

Tobias Scherg:
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me, and a warm welcome to our premises in Birsfelden near Basel.

Oliver Smart:
Tobi, so that our listeners know who I’m speaking to today: who are you?

Tobias Scherg:
I’m Tobias Scherg and I’ve been working for Roser in Basel – or rather, Birsfelden – for 20 years now.
I’m originally from the Spessart region, south of Frankfurt. I’m a trained joiner and, at heart, I’ve remained a wood-loving joiner to this day. After that, I completed various further training courses, studied in Rosenheim and later went on to do a Master’s degree.
But the foundation has always been wood and the joinery trade. Twenty years ago, I joined Roser and thus entered the veneer industry, because veneer was already my passion back then – and it still is today.

Oliver Smart:
Why veneer in particular?

Tobias Scherg:
They say the veneer industry is the premier field of timber utilisation. It really is an incredibly fascinating subject.
As a joiner, I initially thought I already knew a great deal about wood. Then I started working at a veneer factory in the Spessart, and suddenly I came across types of wood I’d never dealt with before. At the same time, customers were coming in from all over the world. That was exciting and completely new to me.
These experiences have shaped me to this day. The whole subject of wood and veneer still fascinates me.

Oliver Smart:
How did you come to join Roser? What’s your story?

Tobias Scherg:
That’s also interesting, because the veneer industry is relatively small and very well connected internationally. Whether someone comes from India, Portugal, Spain, Japan or Australia – many know each other and have worked together at some point.
My circle at the time already had business dealings with Roser. A colleague I’d worked with said to me: “That’s a great company in Switzerland. They make very high-quality products.”
I’d been wanting to go abroad again anyway, and I thought to myself: a year in Switzerland would look good on my CV.
That one year has now turned into 20 – and it still looks good on my CV. Above all, I still really enjoy the work. It’s a brilliant job.

Oliver Smart:
If you compare the situation today with that of 20 years ago, what has changed the most?

Tobias Scherg:
Things are constantly changing, and that’s generally a good thing.
Sourcing timber was certainly easier back then. On the other hand, there was more competition. Over the years, the market has stabilised somewhat. The good companies have stayed, whilst many short-term-oriented suppliers have disappeared again.
People come and go, but in the veneer industry in particular there are a great many long-standing relationships. Many business contacts have turned into friendships. I really value that.

Oliver Smart:
You’ve mentioned various countries. Do you travel a lot? What’s a typical day like for you at work?

Tobias Scherg:
We mainly travel in winter. Trees are usually felled whilst they are dormant – that is, after the leaves have fallen and the sap flow has slowed down.
From October or November onwards, the so-called ‘high-value timber tenders’ begin. These are closed bidding processes. For example, we receive lists from forestry offices in Slovakia, Germany or Switzerland detailing the best logs from the respective districts.
We then travel there and often have about a week to inspect and assess the logs. Afterwards, we return and submit our bid once. After that, we either win the bid or we don’t.
So we’re on the road a lot. There are disappointments, but just as much joy.
Naturally, you’re delighted at first when you win the bid for a log. But the next disappointment can come as early as the veneer mill, when the log is sawn open and the inside looks less attractive than you’d expected from the outside.
Yet that’s exactly what makes this profession what it is. You make plenty of mistakes over the years – and eventually, the sum of these experiences is what we call expertise.
Later on, you end up associating real stories with individual logs. You remember exactly where you bought it, that it was snowing that day, or that you missed your flight afterwards. And in the end, perhaps something incredibly beautiful has been created from it.
Over time, you accumulate lots of great anecdotes.

Oliver Smart:
So you can tell a story about many of the pieces of wood you sell.

Tobias Scherg:
Yes, in a way we’re also selling stories.
It’s particularly lovely when we work directly with clients or architects who also appreciate such stories.
Then we can say, for example: ‘This log was discovered in an old gravel pit in Poland. It’s a bog oak that’s around 3,500 years old. We turned it into veneer, which was later used for a special hotel project.’
It gives me great pleasure when customers appreciate the provenance and history of the material.

Oliver Smart:
We’ve already delved deep into the subject of veneer. But you’re the managing director of Roser AG. First of all, tell us a bit about the company. What is Roser AG today and what do you do?

Tobias Scherg:
Roser AG is over 100 years old. The company was founded in 1911 as a small joinery.
Karl Friedrich Roser, the company’s founder, realised relatively early on that trading could also be a viable option. So the company began trading in panels and later moved into veneer production. At that time, there were still four or five veneer mills in Switzerland.
The company grew steadily. In 1946, the three sons joined the business. The veneer business was booming at the time, and Roser exported veneers internationally, for example to companies such as Steinway and Rolls-Royce.
Later, wood-based materials such as chipboard and MDF were added to the range – in short, everything that joiners need for their day-to-day work. In this way, Roser developed into a full-range supplier for joiners and interior fitters.

However, veneer has always remained our particular speciality and, as such, a unique selling point compared to many competitors.

2003 was another important year. The Roser family decided to build a new premises. Previously, the company was located in the heart of Basel city centre, spread over five floors and right next to a police station.
I myself am no longer familiar with that location, as I only joined Roser in 2006. By then, we were already in our current premises in Birsfelden.
The location is extremely accessible, situated close to the motorway and yet also close to the city. Architects can even cycle over to us for a consultation. From here, we serve our joinery clients.
As well as veneer, we now stock, amongst other things, parquet flooring, doors and decking. We also undertake combined projects in which we integrate wood-based materials and veneers to meet specific functional requirements.

Acoustics, fire safety and sound insulation are major considerations, for example.
We advise architects so that, for any project – be it a hotel, a nursery, a school or any other building – they can cover a wide range of aspects through us.
In doing so, we also take responsibility for ensuring that the final result looks exactly as it was originally planned.

Oliver Smart:
So, in interior fit-out, you can cover a wide range of visible surfaces whilst also meeting technical requirements?

Tobias Scherg:
That’s right. And on top of that, we can tell the story behind the materials.

Oliver Smart:
How are your various business divisions structured today? You have wood-based materials and veneer, plus projects, and with WoodUpp, another division.

Tobias Scherg:
That depends a bit on how you look at it.
As a veneer producer without our own mill, we take on a great deal of responsibility – from round timber procurement through production to the entire upstream and downstream processing. Consequently, we naturally need to achieve a different contribution margin here than if we were to buy in and resell chipboard.
But we need all these areas.
In figures, I’d say roughly: 55 to 60 per cent wood-based materials and about 30 to 35 per cent veneer. Added to this are the project divisions and WoodUpp.ch, our online shop for acoustic panels.
We are constantly considering how we can diversify. If we were to sell exclusively parquet or exclusively veneer, the business risk would be considerably greater.
At the same time, this breadth offers a major advantage for architects and planners. When they visit our premises, they can cover numerous areas in a single visit. We can get involved in a project through parquet, veneer, acoustic solutions or doors.

Oliver Smart:
So your aim is essentially to be a one-stop shop for projects?

Tobias Scherg:
Yes, that must be our aim.
Of course, we then have to do a good job as well. Winning a project is one thing. But what’s far more important is that the client says at the end: ‘That worked brilliantly. We’ve got two more projects in the pipeline and would love to work with you on them again.”
Then you’ve got a lot right.

Oliver Smart:
You’ve already laid a good foundation with that. I mainly wanted to talk to you about veneer today. So let’s start with the basics: what exactly is veneer?

Tobias Scherg:
That’s a good question.
When people ask me what we do, I often say: ‘Our speciality is veneer.’ But then the question usually follows straight away: ‘What exactly is veneer?’
In English, it’s called ‘veneer’. Over there, the term is also sometimes associated with ceramic veneers for teeth.
Put simply, wood veneer is a sheet of wood separated from the trunk without producing any chips. As far as I know, the customs definition specifies a thickness of less than two millimetres.
For me, veneer is one of the most economical and environmentally friendly ways of using wood.
We buy a log from the forest. This is taken to the veneer mill, where it is debarked and split accordingly. The wood is then boiled or steamed to make it soft enough for the slicing process.
Large machines are then used to cut sheet after sheet from the block of wood, with precision down to the millimetre.
With a standard veneer thickness of 0.6 millimetres, we can obtain up to approximately 1,000 square metres of veneer from one cubic metre of wood.
We’ve already had logs with a volume of six, seven or eight cubic metres. This can yield 6,000 to 8,000 square metres of raw veneer.
That’s impressive.

Oliver Smart:
And that’s probably exactly what makes veneer so fascinating.

Tobias Scherg:
Absolutely. Of course, it’s a bit like at the butcher’s: when a pig is cut up, it’s not made up entirely of fillet.
Naturally, we try to buy the best-looking trees possible. Even so, you do occasionally encounter disappointments when you cut open a log.
The great thing, though, is that there’s a use for almost everything.
With veneered panels, for example, both sides need to be veneered to prevent the panel from warping due to differing tensile forces. With wall cladding, often only one side is visible. Veneer that doesn’t need to look quite as high-quality can therefore be used on the reverse side.
Many useful products can also be made from offcuts.
Virtually no waste is produced. Anything that ultimately cannot be put to any other use can, for example, be processed into pellets or thermally recycled.
Veneer is therefore a very efficient way of utilising wood.

Oliver Smart:
The history of Roser AG began over 100 years ago, and veneer played a role right from the start. Back then, there were several veneer producers in Switzerland. What is the situation today? Are there still Swiss veneer mills?

Tobias Scherg:
Unfortunately not anymore. I think that’s a real shame.
As far as I know, the last veneer mill still in operation was Hess in Kleindöttingen. However, they mainly produced rotary-cut veneers for industrial use there.
High-quality sliced veneers used to be produced in places such as Lengwil, Zurich, Rohrbach and Rheinfelden, amongst others.
Many of these veneer factories were at one point situated right in the middle of town or village centres, because the towns and villages had grown up around the factories.
Veneer production is also energy- and labour-intensive and involves a great deal of manual work. Over the years, a large proportion of production has therefore moved to Eastern Europe.
For us, this now means longer journeys. We have to fly or drive long distances by car to have our timber produced.
I think that’s a great shame.

Oliver Smart:
If I’ve understood you correctly, does that mean there can’t be any veneer classified as Swiss timber either?

Tobias Scherg:
That is indeed a problem at the moment.
We are working with Lignum and the FOEN, amongst others, to ensure that Swiss logs can be sent to a foreign veneer mill purely for processing without losing their classification as Swiss timber.
In my opinion, that should be possible.
A tree might grow in Switzerland for 100 years or more and is then transported to Slovenia or Croatia for just two weeks to be processed into veneer. After that, however, the material is no longer classified as Swiss timber.
I find that very hard to understand.

Oliver Smart:
Especially as the relevant industry no longer exists in Switzerland at all.

Tobias Scherg:
That’s right.

Oliver Smart:
You’re also involved in the Veneer Association. Are there any efforts to re-establish a veneer mill in Switzerland?

Tobias Scherg:
It’s a lovely, nostalgic idea, of course. I, too, would very much like to see a veneer mill back in Switzerland.
We’ve actually already made some rough calculations as to what would be required. However, the investment needed is very high.
Such a mill would have to operate on at least two shifts and, above all, run at full capacity all year round.
Our timber season runs roughly from October to April. For year-round operation, we would therefore need a great many partners who could supply raw materials on a continuous basis.
For these reasons, having our own veneer mill in Switzerland is unfortunately not a realistic option for us at present.

Oliver Smart:
Where does veneer production mainly take place today?

Tobias Scherg:
Many well-known veneer manufacturers are now based in Croatia and Slovenia. There are also still a few producers in Germany.
However, many of these companies produce for their own business. We cannot therefore simply send our logs anywhere for contract manufacturing.
We are a manufacturer without our own production facilities and require reliable production partnerships.
To this end, we enter into agreements and commit, for example, to supplying the production partner with specific quantities for processing over the course of the year.
In some cases, there are now even models where higher costs are incurred if production takes place only during the winter season and no quantities are supplied in the summer. Understandably, veneer mills want to utilise their facilities to full capacity all year round.
Production capacities have fallen sharply in recent years.
At the same time, substitute products such as plastic films have become significantly more prevalent. We, on the other hand, can score points with the original material – wood – as well as with healthy living and a natural sense of well-being.
But the competition from substitutes is undoubtedly fierce.

Oliver Smart:
You’ve explained that you’re out on site visits. To put it simply: how do you find the perfect log?

Tobias Scherg:
I’d love to know that myself. I’d sign up for a course on it in a heartbeat.
A crucial factor is your network.
As well as tenders, there are plenty of other ways to find good logs. Partnerships and friendships that develop over many years are crucial.
Perhaps a sawmill will ring up and say: ‘I’ve seen something really lovely here. It just happened to end up with me – why don’t you pop round?’
Or a partner might say: ‘You’re reliable and you pay your bills. If I see something special, you’ll be the first person I ring.’
Relationships like these are hugely important.
Of course, this also means you’re on the road a lot and occasionally spend three or four days, including the weekend, travelling.
But alongside the business side of things, you also experience some wonderful moments. That’s what keeps you going.

Oliver Smart:
So the personal network surrounding the business is also part of it.

Tobias Scherg:
Absolutely. After all, it’s no fun sitting alone in a hotel room every evening.
What’s more, synergies are constantly emerging.
There are companies from whom I used to buy round timber and who now source doors or parquet flooring from us on a completely different level.
Relationships are constantly changing.
International veneer trade and differing tastes

Oliver Smart:
Do you now focus mainly on Swiss customers for veneer, or are you still active internationally?

Tobias Scherg:
That has changed significantly.
Among other things, the pandemic has contributed to a decline in our export business.
However, various trade barriers and certain design trends are having an even greater impact.
We stock more than 100 types of wood. It would be great if this variety were utilised accordingly. At the moment, however, one theme dominates very strongly: oak, oak and more oak.
In the past, around 70 per cent of our veneer business was exported.
We used to supply a great deal to India, Dubai and China. The requirements of these markets sometimes differ greatly from those in Switzerland.
In Dubai, China or, in the past, Russia, for example, heavily figured maple can be in high demand. Here, on the other hand, the preference is often for wood that is as plain and simple as possible – and frequently oak.
It depends heavily on the respective culture and personal taste.
For example, we once had a Brazilian client who said that, for him, only local timber would do and that he absolutely wanted sucupira in his house.
So the question is always: what does ‘local’ mean to the person in question?

Oliver Smart:
And which materials are familiar to them from their own past?

Tobias Scherg:
Exactly. What emotions do I associate with my childhood? Perhaps for someone, sucupira is precisely the wood that feels like home.

Oliver Smart:
I’ve experienced that in South-East Asia too. In Vietnam, for example, you find heavy, dark furnishings where the Chinese influence is clearly visible.
People often furnish their homes in a way that matches their own idea of comfort.
But without giving away your entire secret formula: what specifically do you look out for when you’re assessing a log?

Tobias Scherg:
First of all, you have to bear in mind that we’ll later be cutting this log into slices of perhaps 0.6 or 0.9 millimetres.
So I have to try to look inside the log in my mind’s eye.
If a log is already lying there curved like a banana, I know it’s unsuitable for certain applications.
It should have grown as straight and cleanly as possible.
On the ends, I look at the growth rings, amongst other things. The heart should be as central as possible. At the same time, I try to determine whether there are any knots beneath the bark.
With oak, for example, so-called ‘roses’ can be hidden beneath the bark. American walnut also has its own peculiarities.
Every type of wood has its own pitfalls.
With softwoods, resin pockets can occur. With cedar, for instance, some problems only become fully apparent once the bark has been removed.
Over time, you gain experience in this area.
Nevertheless, I wouldn’t claim to be able to assess every type of wood. I couldn’t simply fly to Belize and buy ziricote there if I lacked the necessary experience.
But then again, I know people who buy such woods regularly. If there were suddenly high demand for the material, I would travel there with these experts to assess a consignment.
The dimensions are also important to me.
We need strong timber, often with a diameter of at least 60 to 70 centimetres. The straight length should also be at least three metres where possible.
Our customers ultimately use it to make doors, panelling, high-quality shop fittings for watch shops and many other applications.
Veneer for yachts and business jets.

Oliver Smart:
How often do you specifically search for a particular log based on a specific project? Does an interior designer, for example, come to you and say: ‘We absolutely need zebrano for a major project’?

Tobias Scherg:
That happens quite often.
For example, we have ongoing requirements from the aviation industry.
Companies such as Gulfstream or Bombardier have programmes for their business jets. There, for instance, they are looking for American walnut that looks almost as if it has been painted with a brush.
If we have the opportunity to purchase a suitable log, we do so.
The situation is similar in the yachting industry.
Designers sometimes come to us with a small A4 sample – or even smaller samples – and say something along the lines of: ‘This is the main deck of a very high-quality yacht. We need 500 square metres, and the veneer must look exactly like this.”
That’s when our search begins.

Oliver Smart:
How often have you seen your own veneer in professional project photos afterwards?

Tobias Scherg:
Of course, it makes you proud to know that you were involved in a project like that.
Often, however, you don’t get to see the finished result at all.
With high-end projects, designers or representatives of the client are often involved, and in some cases we have to sign confidentiality agreements. In such cases, unfortunately, we’re not allowed to publish the project.
That’s a shame at times, because some truly exceptional craftsmanship is produced there.
In fact, one should almost speak of artists rather than craftspeople. The work produced is incredibly beautiful.

Oliver Smart:
What are the limits of veneer? What can’t be done with it?

Tobias Scherg:
That’s precisely what makes it so exciting: what actually isn’t possible?
The technology has advanced so much that veneer is now being used in areas that would previously have been almost unimaginable.
One example is a wooden credit card.
There are also research projects in which wood is being tested in space. An initial test specimen – or satellite – is to be launched into space to investigate how wood behaves there.
One of the underlying questions is what materials are produced when satellites re-enter the atmosphere or burn up. With aluminium, for example, there are corresponding environmental impacts.
We are sometimes able to play a small part in such research projects, including those linked to ETH, at the Biel Higher Technical College for Wood or in collaboration with Swiss Wood Solutions.
This allows us to observe the new possibilities that wood opens up.

Oliver Smart:
Which type of wood is to be sent into space?

Tobias Scherg:
I believe it’s Swiss maple, possibly from Lucerne or Appenzell.
The wood is, of course, specially treated.
I’m convinced we’ll be hearing more about this topic.

Oliver Smart:
You mentioned technological developments. Are there any new technologies being used in the procurement of round timber as well?
For example, is it possible nowadays to examine a log at a tender using a 3D scanner or to measure specific properties? Or is the decision still based mainly on your experience?

Tobias Scherg:
If, for example, you’re buying timber in Normandy, you know you have to expect metal in the log. A metal detector makes perfect sense there.
Such devices do, of course, exist.
In veneer mills, attempts have also already been made to scan logs in a similar way to a CT scan.
However, when it comes to the practical business of buying timber outdoors, a great deal of experience is still required.
Sometimes you first have to spend an hour clearing snow off a log before you can even assess it.
After that, a decision has to be made.
Occasionally, a problematic branch might still be lying down in the mud and not visible at all.
Ultimately, you have to take responsibility and make decisions. Sometimes you end up making the wrong decision. The consequences are part and parcel of the job.

Oliver Smart:
So that our listeners can get an idea: what sort of prices are we talking about? Can a single log cost 100,000 Swiss francs?

Tobias Scherg:
That depends very much on the type of wood and its quality.
With oak, there are companies that buy smaller diameters and use them to produce industrial veneers.
We, on the other hand, try to buy very high-quality logs. For oak of the appropriate quality, for example, prices can start at around 3,000 to 6,000 Swiss francs per cubic metre.
For special logs such as curly maple, bog oak, high-quality American walnut or burl knots, there is virtually no upper limit to the prices.
For example, we once bid 50,000 for a large bog oak log and still did not win the bid.
Later on, you sometimes find out who bought the log and what it looked like once it had been sawn. And occasionally, you’re then glad you didn’t get it.
That’s how this business works: sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Oliver Smart:
How has the round timber market changed? You said that there’s a lot of demand for oak these days. Has that also made it harder to source high-quality oak logs?

Tobias Scherg:
Yes, significantly.
The barrel-making industry also competes with us to some extent for the same logs and can pay high prices.
After all, you don’t need three-metre-long pieces for a wine barrel. At the same time, barrel production also requires straight-grown timber that is as knot-free as possible, because the wood is split.
Even from traditional regions such as the Palatinate or the Spessart, significantly smaller quantities of high-quality oak are now coming onto the market in some cases.
Of the well-known Spessart oak, for example, only relatively small quantities are now available.
We therefore have to travel much further and put in considerably more effort to find good timber.
I expect that high-quality timber will continue to become scarcer in the future and, consequently, more expensive.
On the other hand, this will hopefully also lead to a greater appreciation of the product.
We have projects in the USA and Europe where very high standards are required. However, clients there are also prepared to pay a price that reflects this.
I think that’s important. A high-quality tree may have grown for 150 years or even longer. This material deserves to be valued accordingly.

Oliver Smart:
And it’s then felled within a few hours.

Tobias Scherg:
Exactly. In return, it can continue to live on in a building for a very long time afterwards. That’s a lovely thing.

Oliver Smart:
If, for example, you have a project in the USA: do you send the raw veneer directly, or is it first applied to a wood-based panel?

Tobias Scherg:
The veneers first come to us from the veneer mill.
Here they are sorted – to put it simply, much like in the butcher’s example mentioned earlier: A, B, C and D grades.
We then digitise the material.
We’ve had a Veneer Imager for about seven years. We use this to digitally record every veneer bundle from a log.
For example, we record the log number, the place of purchase, the production plant, the costs and other information. Each veneer bundle is then photographed and classified.
If, for instance, an architect from New York then gets in touch and says: ‘We’re planning a large law firm and need two logs of European oak, each with at least 1,000 square metres per log and a length of 3.80 metres’, we can filter our data accordingly.
We start by sending the architect some photos. Ideally, he’ll then come to see us in person to inspect the logs. Alternatively, we’ll send samples.
The material is then specified and dispatched by sea or, in urgent cases, by air freight.

Oliver Smart:
It really is very international.
You also mentioned that the Swiss market has become more important again. Does this have anything to do with products such as your veneer Layons, which make processing easier for joiners?

Tobias Scherg:
We’ve noticed that whilst many smaller joinery workshops still own a veneer press, they no longer have the machinery needed to join the veneers.
The effort involved is often too great for smaller businesses.
The alternative was ready-veneered panels. However, this also has its drawbacks: you’re restricted to specific panels, may end up with more off-cuts, and your design options are limited.
That’s why we asked ourselves what product might bridge the gap.
As we run an online shop in collaboration with partners, the question was: How can we prepare veneer so that it is suitable for an online shop, whilst remaining a natural product and still offering the most consistent quality possible?
This led to the creation of our Veneer Express.
We pre-cut the veneers for the customer, laminate them with fleece, sand them and keep them in stock at our premises.
If, for example, a customer orders ten sheets of oak, they will receive ten sheets of consistent quality the very next day.
We can vouch for the quality and deliver exactly what the customer needs.

Oliver Smart:
Which veneers tend to stay in Switzerland and which are exported? Are lower-grade veneers, for example, more likely to be exported?

Tobias Scherg:
In the past, it was indeed sometimes the case that grades for which there was less demand in Switzerland or Europe were sold to India or China.
That has changed.
A large middle class has emerged in these countries, and with it a demand for high-quality interior fittings.
Today, in some cases, the quality requirements there are at least as high as those for projects in Switzerland.
Of course, there are also industrial clients, such as furniture manufacturers in Vietnam. Part of production has shifted from China to Vietnam, partly due to lower labour costs.
There, for example, shorter veneer bundles requiring a great deal of manual work can be processed to an excellent standard.
At the same time, however, we also supply high-quality whole logs to China for demanding hotel projects in Shanghai or other cities.
It is therefore a very mixed picture and cannot be generalised in terms of quality.

Oliver Smart:
Roser AG operates in the Basel area. The Housing Protection Initiative came into force there in 2021.
Are you feeling the effects of this? Has it become more difficult to carry out projects in Basel as a result, meaning you have to turn to other regions or abroad to a greater extent?

Tobias Scherg:
If anything, this tends to affect customers in our parquet and doors divisions.
In the veneer business, we notice relatively little of it.
Whether a school is being planned, a pharmaceutical company is building a new premises or a bank is carrying out a project, the project goes ahead regardless.

Oliver Smart:
So the initiative plays hardly any role in the veneer sector?

Tobias Scherg:
No.
There are also other political developments that can in turn trigger changes, for example regarding the issue of imputed rental value.
In the veneer business, we’re often involved in very high-end projects anyway. Such projects are frequently carried out regardless of short-term crises or referendums.

Oliver Smart:
So the business is relatively resilient.
To what extent are you exposed to international competition? Basel, in particular, is very close to Germany and France.

Tobias Scherg:
In the veneer trade, that’s less of a factor.
A particular log is unique. If you own it, you can sell it. If you don’t own it, you often can’t simply order it from the nearest supplier.
If a competitor in Germany, Italy or Poland has an exceptionally good log, they are unlikely to sell it on to another veneer dealer.
They’ll wait for the right project.
A log like that is a bit like a good share or a fine wine.

Oliver Smart:
You mentioned trade barriers. The EUDR is a major issue at the moment. Its specific implementation is still unclear in some respects.
What do you expect?

Tobias Scherg:
Unfortunately, this is a very difficult development for us.
Even the simplifications to the EUDR that have been announced could prove problematic for Swiss companies.
We have just under a million square metres of veneer from more than 100 timber species in stock.
Some of these are real treasures that have been in our possession since the 1960s.
Naturally, for such old stocks, the records and documents required today are not available.
This is precisely where the problem arises.
Within the EU, certain reference information is treated differently along the supply chain. However, a joiner, furniture manufacturer or panel producer in Germany who buys materials from us and imports them into the EU for the first time bears additional responsibility.
Many companies may therefore say: ‘That’s too much hassle for us.’
I also view this situation as critical for other Swiss timber companies that export materials to the EU.

Oliver Smart:
How are you dealing with this? What is your solution?

Tobias Scherg:
Focusing on the rest of the world and on Switzerland

Oliver Smart:
Does that mean the rest of the world is all the more important to you? Are you watching these developments with scepticism, without fundamentally questioning international trade?

Tobias Scherg:
I’m still hoping for simplifications and sensible regulations.
Otherwise, in my view, an unequal situation will arise. Companies within the EU have an advantage, whilst Switzerland faces disadvantages when trading with the EU.
I find that difficult.
Together with organisations such as Lignum, we are committed to finding solutions.
At the same time, it is important for us as a Swiss company to have a strong single market and, in addition, to find suitable partners outside the EU.
For example, we had a very large project in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
In the PIF Tower alone, several tens of thousands of square metres of veneer were used. The clients were very satisfied with our service and spent three days as our guests.
This personalised support was greatly appreciated – and projects like this are, of course, a pleasure to work on.

Oliver Smart:
But that also means the upfront investment is enormous.

Tobias Scherg:
Yes, the upfront investment is substantial.
However, things have changed for us when it comes to payment risk. In many international markets, we now work exclusively on a prepayment basis.
In the past, due to fiercer competition, we were more likely to be persuaded to offer payment terms. This occasionally led to bad debts.
Today, the focus is on finding customers who value our services, pay reliably and with whom there is mutual respect.

Oliver Smart:
So, viewed from another perspective, the situation can also create opportunities in other regions of the world, because capacity and high-quality materials are becoming available there.

Tobias Scherg:
Yes.
And our ‘Swissness’ also gives us advantages. We must showcase these strengths to the outside world and utilise them with confidence.

Oliver Smart:
In many sectors, the shortage of skilled workers is a major issue.
You’re describing a profession that involves a lot of travelling, attending tenders and requires a great deal of experience.
How can we get the next generation excited about the veneer trade?

Tobias Scherg:
Veneer is sexy.
But finding new recruits is, of course, still no easy task – probably much the same as in many other sectors.
The problem is that, at the start, you don’t really realise what this job actually involves.
You might start out working in the warehouse, moving bundles of veneer from left to right, and feel as though everything looks the same. Then you might ask yourself: Why am I actually doing this?
But if you’re patient and genuinely interested, you’ll soon discover other aspects of the job.
Suddenly, a customer from Portugal comes to visit, and you go out for dinner with them in the evening. You learn about a different country and get to know new people.
If you’re open to meeting people and, at the same time, to the natural product that is wood, this combination can be very exciting.
At some point, you might say: ‘Now let’s visit our partner in Portugal.’ He has excellent eucalyptus and, in turn, buys oak from us.
This can lead to great relationships and opportunities.
Our experience is therefore that we largely have to develop our own young talent.
Even if we were to poach someone from another veneer company, that company might operate in a completely different way.
Everyone has their own processes and philosophies.

Oliver Smart:
So you take young staff straight to the warehouse, show them the timber and perhaps spot potential there that you can then help develop?

Tobias Scherg:
Exactly.
For example, I might say: ‘We’re flying to Croatia on Sunday evening. Are you coming?’
Of course, you have to find people who are keen to do this and see travelling as an opportunity – rather than just thinking about how many working hours they can log for it.

Oliver Smart:
Although travelling is probably particularly exciting at the start. If you do it for many years and eventually start a family, it can of course become quite exhausting.
The job demands a lot from you.

Tobias Scherg:
I have a very patient wife who also travels a great deal herself. As a result, we do indeed have to take turns being away from time to time.
But the time has now come to pass on responsibility to the younger generation.
You have to be prepared to say: ‘We’ll do this together the first five or six times. After that, you’ll go on your own. Then you’ll make the decision and, in doing so, spend a considerable sum of the company’s money.’
Afterwards, that person also bears responsibility for ensuring that this timber is sold profitably and that the investment pays off.
That’s exactly how people develop.
When I compare my own personality 20 years ago with how I am today, I can see enormous growth.
And today I’m seeing the same thing in our younger staff. They’ve been with us for a few years now and are constantly developing further.
It’s brilliant to see that.

Oliver Smart:
That’s probably one of the most rewarding things of all: empowering other people, passing on skills to them and watching them develop.
To round things off, you’re welcome to share a wish for the timber industry. What would you wish for it?

Tobias Scherg:
Wood is a brilliant material.
For a long time, it was somewhat overshadowed. But in my view, wood is currently enjoying a renaissance – for example, in timber construction or through veneer in new technical applications.
My wish for the timber industry would therefore be quite simple:
Go out there and show people just how fantastic this product is.

Oliver Smart:
We’ll take that on board too.
Tobias, thank you very much for the chat.
And thank you very much to all of you out there for listening. See you in a month’s time for the next episode of HOLZCHÖPF.
Bye for now, everyone.

Tobias Scherg:
Thank you very much, everyone. Bye.

Presenter:
This podcast was presented by Holzplatten AG – your partner for wood-based materials, doors and floor coverings.